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Post by boelsen on Nov 25, 2008 5:59:06 GMT 7
The desire you had to say 'something' is fair enough, but if 'wow' and that I seem like a 'dick' are your focus then I'd reconsider that desire to contribute. go fuck yourself! i lol'ed. cant be fucked reading all the posts. as they really are quite long.
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Post by closer on Nov 25, 2008 12:07:51 GMT 7
dear sunkissed.
i'm pretty sure any form of behaviour can be justified, which seems to be what you are doing. i think the point people are trying to make, is that billy's behaviour, justifiable or not, isn't really helping anyone.
assuming that billy is acting this way with a goal in mind, it is my opinion that he could go about achieving this goal (whatever it is) without insulting his audience - (that is, unless his intention IS to insult his audience. And if thats what he wants to do, if anyone should be told to go and fuck themselves, it should be him!)
As for what Anahedonia has said to you... It is nothing in comparison to Billys comments the other night in chicago about anal sex to the audience member who was no longer in a position to defend himself to the crowd.
the end.
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Post by boelsen on Nov 25, 2008 13:57:23 GMT 7
the anal sex thing.. meh.. i think you've got to be a bit precious to take offense to that. i'm glad you didnt say homophobic or anything, as anal sex can be enjoyed by gay and straight people bagging the general crowd is lame.. but baging one dude after he bagged you onstage... go for it billy. plus it was funny. That being said i really dont wanna get involved in this!
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 25, 2008 14:09:31 GMT 7
Closer said: "assuming that billy is acting this way with a goal in mind, it is my opinion that he could go about achieving this goal (whatever it is) without insulting his audience"
I totally agree, whether it is his 'goal' or not, abusing the people who have attended your concert isn't going to help the bands status. However, when listening to the boots of the shows, the amount of talking and audible restlessness is appalling, and I think it needs to be addressed by Billy. And by pulling the most vocal member of that crowd up to say something as a representative of that crowd, so far, hasn't helped at all. What's Billy to do? Soldier on, play the songs to those members of the audience who are visibly enjoying it? Corgan always talks about the 'electricity' in the air at rock concerts etc, and I imagine that with a significantly audible proportion of your audience disengaging then there aren't many options left.
I'm with Scott for the anal sex shenanigans, I don't think it was very smart, nor cool, but all in all it was funny and I could imagine saying it myself, though regretting being a dick.
Geez Scott it wasn't THAT long, at most five minutes reading!
I even managed to get some netphorians reading that one!
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bazza
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What's your favourite year?
Posts: 143
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Post by bazza on Nov 25, 2008 14:13:03 GMT 7
I'm not gonna weigh too much into this discussion (that's been done already by some), but the whole Billy v Audience thing has been going for about 20 years now. Listening to the various bootlegs I have from over the years, there have been various exchanges with the audience. The worst one with most spite in mind was In 95 when Bilyl was called a faggot by a coward in the back of the audience. Now if you'd have to put with that shit for 20 years, you'd be ranting a fair bit every time you hit the stage by now. You might only go to one, two or three shows or whatever, and hear some rants, and the crowd gives it back, and then the complaints, etc. How about some perspective, and seeing that the Pumpkins (yes, all of them) have to put up with that at least 5 out of 7 days when they're touring? It would wear anyone down - and this is their chosen profession. Is giving up a job they love really an option??
And as far as expectations go, I really try to have none at all. Having expectations is a quick way to being disappointed. Appreciate what you receive in all facets of life, and you'll be happier for it.
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Post by the viper on Nov 25, 2008 15:16:14 GMT 7
People are whiny bitches and feel entitled to hearing their favourite songs live and they get pissy and complain about how the band have done them wrong and how Billy doesn't want to play for them. If I've spend thousands of dollars on Pumpkins music and merchandise over the years, then I do expect some level of entitlement to hear certain songs, yes. But I know and appreciate that I'll never hear all of them in a concert environment. That's the problem with loving a band with hundreds of amazing songs in their catalogue - it's a complete pipe-dream to want to hear all of them. I think everyone gets that. BUT at least, I'd expect to hear Pumpkins songs, instead of the same covers over and over again or, 20 minutes of non-directional jamming at the end of what was a pretty decent song to begin with. If you want to work out new riffs and phrases etc., sure thing but, do it in the studio where you DON'T have a room full of 5000 people who paid to see you play actual songs - YOUR songs. And if you do fine, but don't EXPECT that everyone MUST love it like you are the second coming of Christ. I recall that one some radio interview Billy once said something about "the fans are always right" etc. Maybe he's forgotten this - closer is right when saying he is a man of contradictions. Now in this instant information age we live in, BC can't eat breakfast without a handful of trouble-making douchebags attacking, critiquing and generally making disparaging comments about him and his activities. Or eat lunch, for that matter. Not that you attacked or made disparaging comments about him. But you get the point. The moron quotient is growing and the internet has given them more of a soapbox for causing general discomfort in the community than ever before. Agree. To me, if you whine that a show was too short, the band didn't play the hits, Billy didn't seem happy, the band left and didn't meet fans, Billy was cold to the people who asked him stupid questions --- you are the ingrates. You are the people that make the rest of us sick. Geez, do you want to try and come across as just a LITTLE more elitist? Should we bow down to you? "You make the rest of us sick." - This is all about a band and mainly the lead singer of said band, yet you make it sound like you're talking about paedophiles or something. Probably a little extreme there. You are the people who want EVERYTHING but NOTHING is ever good enough because you will always find cause for complaint. You're never happy. You're never glad for what you have. Gross generalisation there - suggesting you know exactly what "the people who want EVERYTHING" are actually thinking. And most people's complaints (and the purpose of this thread) surround Billy's attitude of late. Perhaps you should take your "The Smashing Pumpkins and Billy can't do anything wrong EVER rose coloured glasses" off for a second and realise that these "complaints" you say which are completely unjustified, are coming from fans who have loved the Pumpkins for years, yet are getting a little tired of his patronising and bitter comments towards them. They're allowed a point of view too, despite whether or not they present it in a way which satisfies you. This tour, as far as my understanding has been from day one, is for fans and the band to CELEBRATE the fact that such an awesome collective known as Smashing Pumpkins started making music 20 years ago and are still making some damned fucking fantastic sounds today. I agree. Some of the new songs like 99 Floors and The Rose March are up there with the best they've done. ¡K..Sure, you might tell tales and reminisce about your younger days pausing to recall certain events along the way but it's a celebration of being; You've reached this milestone and it's fucking fantastic to share it with those who love you. I guess that's where people's thinking is at - exactly where yours is. But the point you make is that one would "reminisce about YOUR younger days" - people are wanting Billy to reminisce about HIS younger days by playing HIS songs (and collectively, SP songs) - and more of them at that. Why can't he reminisce about Snail or Thru the Eyes of Ruby instead? You can't exactly blame people for wanting to hear something that they want to hear. I totally agree though that people shouldn't label a show as shit because they didn't hear one or two of the songs they wanted. I did around the time of the residencies, but learned to more appreciate the show as a whole after a while, as being the most important thing. Instead this amazing band I hold near and dear to me fronted by one of the most sincere and honest people I've ever met in my life is constantly having their name dragged through the mud so that some shithead sitting behind a computer can feel like they got their moneys worth and could relive some of their favourite songs of the past. It doesn't work like that. It's not fucking realistic to dwell on things like that. Why are you so being so petulant when discussing the opinions and desires of other fans? Are you suggesting we AREN'T allowed to want to hear favourite songs of ours? Is that against the rules? I generally don't weigh into these discussions anymore because it's threads like this that make me sick and ultimately I end up sounding the bad guy when really the reactions are from the people who I'm talking about right now. As o'sullivan put it (not to paraphrase) - this is to everybody and nobody in particular but if you get offended by what I've said, then yes - I mean you. I'm talking about you... I just hope some of you read what I've said and realise how unreasonable and self-righteous you're being in regard to the band and your misguided demands. I'm not offended, and this post doesn't imply that I am. I just think it's interesting to see you complain yourself about other people's opinions and berate those with a differing opinion or different way of expressing themselves to you. Seems a little hypocritical to me. I also think it's unfair and unreasonable of you, being in your position of the high and almighty "Real Pumpkins Queen" and all, that you label anyone who has anything BUT overly positive things to say about the band or Billy as being "self-righteous" and as having "misguided demands". We're all huge fans of the band. We all love them. We wouldn't be here otherwise. But we don't have to always go weak at the knees and all starry-eyed when talking about them. Maybe it's time for you to become a little more objective and open to the opinions of others. I can totally respect you wanting to defend your favourite band until you're blue in the face, but the crux of what your post is about is that "It's not OK to have anything negative to say about the band", or that we "want to see Billy behave in a respectful way to the fans". When you started this board, were you expecting everyone would only write nice things about the band all the time? And that you would get angry and aggressive if people did otherwise? That's a little misguided. I'd also recommend taking some lessons in diplomacy from your husband. He's much better at it than you. Relying on labelling people as "shitheads, douchebags and whiny bitches etc." as the driver of your point is a little 9th grade. Shall I baton down the hatches for an attack now?
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Post by sunky on Nov 25, 2008 15:57:47 GMT 7
So, just reading up on this thread and there have been a few person attacks ... hate me, but as an admin lets keep it civil. That being said - great to have some fucking discussion on here again - woo! Im also reading alot of people that are both agreeing and disagreeing with each other, there doesn't seem to be the one side vs the other, its very mixed and varied. Which is a healthy thing, its promoting good discussion, but we are crossing paths here and I think in the long run we all want the same outcome. We all want a band that is going to stay around, that is going to be stable for years to come. We've always had to put up with a dysfunctional band and it was something I was actually hoping would be fixed once the band "got back together" ... but here we are again. Maybe its just part of being the Pumpkins. @the viper - I know the comments Bree posted in regards too are more from SP.com than here, there are a lot of ungrateful fans there. People who expect something special from SP, but they can't say what it is ... so even after seeing a full energy show for just under 3 hours ... they still label it as shit. They are the people that right everything off the band does, if it doesn't fit what they wanted 100%. PS - the reference to the "Real Pumpkin Queen" was a reference to the poor job that that 'other Pumpkin Queen' did on SP.com before PMM took over. Not an elitist thing, I really hope we are never seen that way. PPS - I don't know where this thread is headed, its going in multiple directions and doesn't really follow the first post by Heath. But this is a discussion worthy of happening at this point in the fan community. PPPS - My 5c worth and complaint about the band at the moment ... I'm sick to death of the band talking about the bad fans within the community, lets focus on the ones that understand what the band is doing. By no mean am I wanting to be part of a group of "Yes Fans" ... but as Billy said in a recent blog, its about constructive criticism ... and yeah, as a few of you mentioned. Billy's stage antics lately have pushed the crowd to far and he has come across in a bad way for it. (I'm sorry this post follows no real structure, I've been discussing this issue far to much in the past few weeks here and around the place ... Im not sure where I've said what anymore)
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 25, 2008 16:25:58 GMT 7
I think that one of the major reasons people have been upset with this thread is the notion of the 'fans. The 'fans' that have been criticised, whether by billy, or myself and others obviously does not include everyone, which I think is why alot of people are disgruntled with Billy because they feel interpellated by that word. There IS a vocal part of the ENTIRE pumpkins community, that is not only ozphoria!! A vocal part who seem ungrateful and become polemical the moment something doesn't go their way. I understand that certain posts have been attacked for talking about these 'entitled' fans, but to be clear, I do not believe that the criticisms of these fans was interpreted as they were intended, and that's mostly language's fault, ha!
This is 'on topic' because the 'possible reason for billy's rants' must take into account the portion of the fan group he is addressing.
And in saying so, I don't think it's a matter of 'Rose coloured glasses', I think comments like these have been a long time a comin' with all the negative focus on the band there was a need for a post that suggested a refocus of the communities attention and intentions.
And I agree, there have been some personal attacks in this thread, from an open post to the entire community I received personal attacks in return. Yeah it's just the internet, but I took the time to think about what I was saying, and bothered to post it here and what I got in return was not cool.
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Post by closer on Nov 25, 2008 16:53:18 GMT 7
I never thought I'd say this, but I wanted to assure you all that I see nothing wrong with anal sex, or the people who endulge in it.
Thankyou, and goodnight!!
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Post by boelsen on Nov 25, 2008 18:36:15 GMT 7
Or eat lunch, for that matter. Not that you attacked or made disparaging comments about him. But you get the point. When you started this board, were you expecting everyone would only write nice things about the band all the time? And that you would get angry and aggressive if people did otherwise? That's a little misguided. I'd also recommend taking some lessons in diplomacy from your husband. He's much better at it than you. Relying on labelling people as "shitheads, douchebags and whiny bitches etc." as the driver of your point is a little 9th grade. Shall I baton down the hatches for an attack now? that would ahve taken balls!
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Post by boelsen on Nov 25, 2008 18:39:30 GMT 7
I never thought I'd say this, but I wanted to assure you all that I see nothing wrong with anal sex, or the people who endulge in it. Thankyou, and goodnight!! as bitchy as this thread can get, it has some funny posts! btw, your killing the karma/post count! haha. BUT SOMEONE GAVE ME NEGATIVE KARMA! probably an admin for going off topic
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 26, 2008 15:56:43 GMT 7
how does the karma thing work anyway? I was in the negatives the other day...
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Post by boelsen on Nov 26, 2008 16:49:15 GMT 7
the 'exalt' gives you 1 positive karma, smite gives you 1 negative. more or less if you piss someone off, they'll probably give you a negative. you can only do it to a certain person every now and then though.
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Post by Steve on Nov 26, 2008 16:49:18 GMT 7
Exalt someone and you will give them one karma point
Smite them and one gets taken away
It's below your location if you haven't seen it
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Post by Steve on Nov 26, 2008 16:50:00 GMT 7
the 'exalt' gives you 1 positive karma, smite gives you 1 negative. more or less if you piss someone off, they'll probably give you a negative. you can only do it to a certain person every now and then though. Dammit Scotty, i should smite you for that timing Anyways...back on topic.
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 26, 2008 18:33:27 GMT 7
oh, so i've pissed some people off!
nice!
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wolfbite
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Please don't feed the animals
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Post by wolfbite on Nov 27, 2008 4:03:55 GMT 7
There IS a vocal part of the ENTIRE pumpkins community, that is not only ozphoria!! A vocal part who seem ungrateful and become polemical the moment something doesn't go their way. So your problem with the fans is that they act like Billy and have a rant when things don't go their own way?
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Post by boelsen on Nov 27, 2008 5:47:37 GMT 7
the 'exalt' gives you 1 positive karma, smite gives you 1 negative. more or less if you piss someone off, they'll probably give you a negative. you can only do it to a certain person every now and then though. Dammit Scotty, i should smite you for that timing haha! please dont! some kind soul gave me positive tog et abck up to 17 oh, so i've pissed some people off! nice! i think you've pissed more than 'some' off michael
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Post by explosionsinthesky on Nov 27, 2008 13:23:30 GMT 7
I don't feel like entering this argument.
The only thing I keep thinking after reading so much of it is, well, you know it's rock n roll, there are no rules.
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Post by boelsen on Nov 27, 2008 13:43:36 GMT 7
I don't feel like entering this argument. too late now
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Post by explosionsinthesky on Nov 27, 2008 14:06:18 GMT 7
I don't feel like entering this argument. too late now I know, I've been lurking on this thread for a bit, and just really didn't want to get involved because well you know, its the internet. I generally think fans are ungratefull when it comes to any band, not just the Smashing Pumpkins, which is why when Billy does lash out, a part of me applaudes but the other part knows he won't do himself any favours. I aint no fence sitter so I'll just come out and say that I enjoy when he does it, you know, I understand why it's bad, but for me, personally, i'm entertained. Being a musican who performs countless gigs around the place, I really feel that until you've done the whole be up on a stage performing thing, it is hard for you to have an opinion on the etiquette of how to treat an audience. I mean, my band's only just begun to get a small following and they are all great people and I love meeting them, shaking hands. My journey is just beginning, so the people now, understand and are attracted to us because they get it, but once it goes beyond that, and people like your music because it's hip, then I just don't know how I'd personally handle that. The pumpkins are on the other end of the scale. The hard part of music is once you release it, it ceases to become your's, once released it becomes the property of the people that buy it, so you can never truly control how or what they get from it. Most people get sentimental about music, which is why they'll always love the old shit better than the new shit. It soundtracked a great period in there life. That's fine, that's the beauty of music, but when you use music in order to create and be an "artist" you're never thinking of sentimentallity when you're creating, you're thinking of how to revolutionise feelings, well at least I am. So I'd say that part of you, you know, that part of you that's a human being, would be slightly pissed off that people would not "get" it. I've never been disapointed that a band hasn't played my favourite song. I just want to spend 2 hours listening to them in a live setting, if that happens to be jamming, awesome, if it happens to be hits, cool, if my faviourite song makes an appearance even better. I'm just grateful that they are taking the time to entertain me. As it's been mentioned, being a musican is like a job and when you become famous and succesful from it, it truly is your job, on all levels, not just creating, but performing, entertaining, interview, merchandising and meeting fans. So, next time you're working your job, no matter how good or bad the job you have is, just think how lucky it is that your "bad" customers aren't people yelling, heckling, throwing shit at you, playing pool and or just being ungrateful that you are trying to do your job. We've all had bad customers and we all know how fucked that can be. Standing on stage emoting is no fucking different. That's all I have to say really. This interview's over.
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Post by sunky on Nov 27, 2008 20:40:58 GMT 7
The only thing I keep thinking after reading so much of it is, well, you know it's rock n roll, there are no rules. Couldn't have summed it up better. The day the Smashing Pumpkins start playing by the rules is the day they stop being the Smashing Pumpkins, whatever the hell they are these days. To the people that have accused me, Bree and others of loving everything the band have done ... I think its pretty harsh to say that we've never had a bad word to say about the bane. For me, and for my partner in crime, musicially the band haven't let us down ... well there have been the odd song here and there. DFA, Innocense, Winterlong, For God and Country ... theirs been a few. But artistically with artwork and even more of the business side of their career we have not always agreed with their decisions. But we still hold a love and respect for this band, like I know most of you do too. This time in the bands career is not easy at all, and I can't imagine what the band are going through. Because where to now? Do they have to do something drastic like stop playing old songs, like Billy has said, to make people realise that they are about the future. But then begs the questions, what is an old song? where is the line drawn? 2.5yrs after putting in the advert in the paper ... "... i want my old songs back ..." ... he is thinking about laying them to rest forever. Im not wanting to think about this in to much detail until the man himself speaks ... and don't worry, he will. He always does.
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 27, 2008 22:11:06 GMT 7
jesus negative three!
I agree with sunky except for Winterlong and Innosense!!!!
Yeah, I really wonder how the band are feeling at the moment when coming up against such audible criticism at shows, and in the press; not that this is new for them! It seems like the antagonism with the crowd is taking a backseat at the moment when comparing to a few of these other previous shows, but I don't know what that signifies for the band.
Edit: Wolfkissed: Got me there!
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Post by sunky on Nov 28, 2008 6:25:46 GMT 7
Well Billy said that the negativity and angry messages do hurt, it was in one of the 3 radio interviews. basically he said some of it is unjustified as critics, fans etc are just saying "its shit" ... he's wanting a reason i think, and also wanting people to ask themselves "is this music for me anymore?" ... just because it isn't what you want, does that make it shit? because somebody else will like it. because they are being the band they have always been, there is nothing different form the Pumpkins way of work now, than the Pumpkins from the early 90's. be different, play different, write different and be better muscians than every other band out there. yet the time has come where the audience, not everybody, is saying "shut up and take the moment, be the jukebox, and play the songs we want grandpa" ... We are mixed bunch, mixed tastes ... for me yeah I always skip Winterlong and Innosense ... it think they are some of Corgan's worst songs ... but if was to play them live, I know that somebody in the crowd would be thinking - ZOMG! Winterlong!
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 28, 2008 6:55:19 GMT 7
he's wanting a reason i think, and also wanting people to ask themselves "is this music for me anymore?" ... just because it isn't what you want, does that make it shit? because somebody else will like it. You know, as simple as that is I'd never thought of phrasing it that way, but that's exactly it! Man! That's all I'd wanted to say in those long ass rambling posts! Sunky to the rescue, making my long posts redundant.
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Post by PaRkA on Dec 8, 2008 11:26:16 GMT 7
I think a lot of this attitude PPl are showing at the concerts lately has alot to do with the attitude that teens and the like purvey in anything they do. They are self-righteous, self centred, egotistical, invinsible and just plain rude. Hey so is billy so shut the fuck up and let the man play. If you don't like it I hear nickelback are looking for fans with an interest in boring and mundane songs and lyrics.
Oh if your offended... Remember nickelback ftw
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Post by sunky on Dec 8, 2008 13:13:10 GMT 7
I've missed you Parka!
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Post by explosionsinthesky on Dec 8, 2008 13:21:33 GMT 7
I think a lot of this attitude PPl are showing at the concerts lately has alot to do with the attitude that teens and the like purvey in anything they do. They are self-righteous, self centred, egotistical, invinsible and just plain rude. Hey so is billy so shut the fuck up and let the man play. If you don't like it I hear nickelback are looking for fans with an interest in boring and mundane songs and lyrics. Oh if your offended... Remember nickelback ftw So true, so very true.
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Post by boelsen on Dec 8, 2008 15:44:19 GMT 7
I had an interview with Anders from In Flames the other week. For the 99% that dont know them, older stuff is popular with hardcore metal people, newer stuff is more popular from the masses. He said they dont like to play much old shit a) cos it wasnt written to be played live, ie, too many guitar tracks etc, and b) 95% of the crowd just stands there not knowing the song.
As a performer, wouldnt seeing a crowd getting into a show mean something aswell? I know if i was a performer I'd love to see a crowd where everyone gets into the songs, rather then 20 or so hardcore fans from ozphoria loving everything, and 99% of the crowd being bored.
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Post by PaRkA on Dec 9, 2008 14:01:50 GMT 7
i think the main difference there is that the pumpkins have always played what they want the way they want, they're music was made to play live, and if it was hard to replicate the original they always found a way.
My Final Say On This Is..
let them nut it out for the next couple of months or so, we're not on any deadline so as far as i see they can take as long as they want to get where they're trying to go.
In the end as always whatever they do will be worth all the (supposedly) pain.
edit: typo
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