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Post by *Shard of Glass* on Nov 21, 2008 11:15:40 GMT 7
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Post by Cygnet on Nov 21, 2008 15:12:16 GMT 7
I figure this tour is meant as something of a road-block, trying to get rid of all the casual listeners once and for all, otherwise I dont know why he would be so persistantly slagging them off lately, I think this is intended to be the nail in the coffin, he got fed up with the constant polarization with the crowd on the regular shows where he wasnt necessarily trying to do anything beyond play music which in some way covered the various eras and whatnot of the band, actually trying to do the right thing by the fans and just being faced with negetivity at every turn. I think he just wants to rid himself of that however possible, and the best way he can think of is by hitting it head-on with kazoos haha
I wouldn't be at all surprised if it is something conceptual as well though, another part of the great mystery of what the fuck is going on at the moment with the Gatmog story, which ive stoped trying to follow because its a little difficult to discern whats going to happen before it happens. Im almost certain we're all living chapter 4 though, the real story, we're yet to see how it ends...
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Post by sunky on Nov 22, 2008 6:51:04 GMT 7
Well this seems like a good thread to discuss the direction of the band I guess. There is a frustration with the band, but has anybody noticed its only become this bad since they toured the US? They toured Europe, Australia, NZ, South America etc and sure there was complaints ... but nothing this bad. Is it a cultural thing? Simon from the PMM crew interviewed a few fans who did the recent VIP thing with the band. One quote from BC that caught my eye: "Billy said this is the last tour where they are playing old songs" Hmm. I don't know what to say to this, one part of me can feel their frustration yet the other just wants to remind Billy of the advert he put in the paper ... "i want my band back. my songs back." ... you can't forget the songs that built you, if he turned his back on those songs for good ... I'd be questioning my love for the band. I'm putting that out there right now. Im all for new music, 99 Floors goes down for me as one of the best SP songs ever ... and the new sounds and direction is stronger than ever. But then this band shouldn't be called Smashing Pumpkins if they are never to play Smashing Pumpkins songs from the past again, thats what I argued about when they got the band back together. The line up didn't matter, it was playing those old songs that made this line up the Smashing Pumpkins. It was just like the Adore era, that wasn't the full '4 piece' line up and had new touring members, yet they were still the Smashing Pumpkins. They still, for what ever reason, played old SP songs every now and then ... Tonight, Tonight, BWBW, Stumbleine, Zero ... they were played during that era. I really hope this is just an off the wall comment made by Billy, as a way to tell the fans that want them to be the Pumpkins circa 1993/1995 again that ... its time to put that Pumpkins to rest. You can read the other comments, and see the video here too: www.smashingpumpkins.com/pages/articles/5star-vip-how-wasIts an interesting time and think there is a lot for us to discuss about this.
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Post by boelsen on Nov 22, 2008 7:13:59 GMT 7
if that comment is true.. does than mean they are scrapping the 'era' shows? so no more gish shows etc?
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Post by sunky on Nov 22, 2008 7:49:34 GMT 7
Yeah I didn't even think about that ... I think this comment will need to be address, hopefully we can get some info in a PMM article.
It could go down as another BC comment ... like the 1996ish ... "We are done with rock music" ... then few later they are playing songs like Everlasting Gaze. The fan interview also gets Billy saying they have their lowest amount of faith in their audience now than ever before. Im really split at the moment, because I can see both sides of the story ... 20th Ann shows ... of course people are going to expect "hits" everynight. It could have been done as a final resting tour to those first 20 years ... but thats me.
Im going to stop writing now ... because Im questioning this to much I think.
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Post by boelsen on Nov 22, 2008 8:22:46 GMT 7
haha, keep the faith simon i just dont understand why they dont take out a hit from the main set, and finish with it. they dont have to add any more hits to the set.. but 90% of people would be happy then
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Post by sunky on Nov 22, 2008 8:34:19 GMT 7
I know ... and to be honest, thats what I don't like about some of the current sets. Im all for the epic endings I love them ... but Set the Controls is such a different ending to the days of Silverfuck from the mid 90's ... that built and built ... this ends so quietly ... leaving people confused. Its got to work both ways, if people respect you to stay there and listen to Set the Controls (lets say) then finish off with Cherub Rock or Zero ... people lose their shit, go nuts and walk away happy. But it does feel like the band are trying to see how far they can push the audience ... Im not saying give the people what they want ... urgh ... I don't know what Im saying. I can keep seeing both sides of it ... and I don't know where I stand at the moment.
Ok im leaving this thread ... for a little bit.
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Post by AlmostOz on Nov 22, 2008 11:31:59 GMT 7
I think partly the band are doing it to themselves in the shows. I think reordering the setlists is one way to keep people happy. The band can still play the songs they want to Gossamer is an awesome song, but you can't play 34 minutes of gossamer and then launch into another long or hard rock song, 99 floors would be far better, give people a rest, i was stuffed and confused after some of the long songs they played in brisbane, at one point I was thinking "i've waited all my life to see them and im bored"
btw the setlist from United Palace 07-11-08 was a great one.
In IAGW billy talks about wanting people to see the journey to the hits. Aren't all the previous 'hits' part of the journey to the songs being written today? You can't say sp would be your favourite band if their first ep was american gothic. You like american gothic because it is part of the journey.
But anyway billy always says outrageous things and then does something different. Remember he hated james and darcy on the old bc.com site, and now he gives the upmost respect to them. Its just part of the pumpkins circus
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Post by *Shard of Glass* on Nov 23, 2008 4:02:24 GMT 7
I agree simon, I'm split too. I can certainly understand Billy and the bands frustration (Jeff's new post is particularly good I think). But the negative attitude towards the home crowd I thought came out of nowhere, to my eyes and ears anyway, it started out as one of the best shows I've seen. And if it is a conceptual thing, or just a bit of an act, it seems a bit out of sorts. Some people were saying "why is billy talking like this," while others were much more aggreived and/or annoyed. I don't know if Set the Controls, while great, really sits well in a 20th Anniversary show (they've only played it this year and its a cover). But then again Everybody Clap your Hands and Everything is Beautiful, I thought were great, and how Billy uses them to take the piss out of rock and roll. The fanbase seems to be at a bit of a crossroads, and I don't think its ever felt quite like this before. I've been yearning for the solidarity of the Machina and Future Embrace eras imparticular: less tension, people seemed to be more on the same page, and we all had something to look forward to (the reformation of the band, et.al). yeah, this is hard to talk about, there is a much greater intensity to the feelings being generated on all sides of the fence.
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wolfbite
zero
Please don't feed the animals
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Post by wolfbite on Nov 23, 2008 7:19:01 GMT 7
What I don't get is one month he says that they are a band that plays 'American Gothic' music and then he plays something like 'Everything is Beatiful' with fucking kazoos. I honestly don't think that the problem is with the fans, they have taken a lot of shit form him and stuck it out. I work with a guy who absolutely hates the band and likes to give me shit because I am a big fan of them but I have always stuck-up for the band, however, watching that video where he complains about album sales and bags out the audience honestly make me question if I can even be fucking bothered with it all anymore. Prehaps if he actually included tracks which the fans like on his albums like 99 Floors and I personaly love Stellar which was iTunes only then he would have those sales that he was after. I honestly think that he has made a lot of bad mistakes and is taking it out on the fans. We shouldn't be suprised by the mistakes either. Adore was a mistake. Following it up with a concept album (Machina) was a mistake. Pissing off your label (releasing Machina II online) was a mistake, dont believe then take a look at how much trouble he has doing stuff with his own back catalogue of work. Managing to put together a line-up (Zwan) as good as it was and then pissing off all your new bandmates was a mistake. TFE alienated a lot of fans (i think I have listened to it twice) because people want to listen to him playing a fucking guitar, there is a reason that fans go nuts a concert when JC complex is mentioned but are so-so when TFE is mentioned. Now he has released a documentary showing that he doesn't know how to engage his audiences (who where died hard fans and traveled a fucking long way to get to his artsy gigs) and on a tour to celebrate 20 years of his work, which should also be a way of him giving thanks to his fans, he doesn't want to play stuff that his fans want to hear. Mistakes mistakes mistakes!!!!!!!!!!! Sure the money isn't rolling in like it was in the Mellon Collie days but he isn't running the band like it was in the Mellon Collie days. Priority tickets for AMEX card holders, special VIP backstage passes for a cost, live show recordings for sale online, all of that is very alternative isn't it? Nope sorry, it sounds like a fucking U2 tour!!!!! He had better pull his fucking head in or else I suggest that he should take a good look at all of arenas that he is playing in atm and enjoy them because he will alienate so many fans that he will never have the need to play in such large venues again. Sorry I realise that was a bit of rant but that video really fucking pissed me off!!!!!
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Post by the viper on Nov 23, 2008 10:21:59 GMT 7
The last three posts (wolfbite, shardofglass and almostoz) collectively sum up how I am feeling at the moment.
Corgan is really starting to come across as the whiney, immature and childish person so many labelled him as in the 90's, and are those traits which I defended with vigour to all of my friends. The more he talks lately, the more he sounds like a 9 year old brat who didn't get the bike he wanted for christmas, and these views are coming from someone who has idolised him for years. Sure some of the stuff he is saying is funny, but most of it isn't. If he's trying to be funny, it's just coming across as bitterness.
I'm at a forked road at the moment, where one path is to continue with staying abreast with updates and new material etc. (which I am doing now), and the second is to literally 'switch-off' and ignore any developments, whilst holding onto the music as it stands up until now.
And yes, I know some of you will say well 'the past is in the past', and 'we have to look to the future' - I agree wholeheartedly, but geez it makes it really difficult when Billy is being completely unreasonable, and well, a bit of a tool. I'm not saying that every show should be about playing old songs and only the best known ones, but 34 minutes of Gossamer is total overkill. And god, they really have to lay off the covers. Throwing it in every once in a while is OK, but having Set the Controls etc. take up show time that could be filled with actual Pumpkins songs, is starting to raise serious questions with me.
I also really am beginning to wonder how long the other (specifically Jeff and Ginger) will be able to put up with it. They signed on to play with and reform the biggest alternative act of the 90's, and here they are putting up with the band (through Corgan) belittling fans and copping more negativity from crowds than they may have expected......
Well that turned out to be a longer post that I expected, apologies! :-)
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Post by sunky on Nov 23, 2008 10:43:27 GMT 7
Yesterday I was feeling the same way, but I've done a lot of thinking about it in the past 24hrs and listening to old shows ... this is just the Pumpkins from back in the day ... doing what they've always done. 25 min version of Set the Controls ... well Adore had the 25min plus versions of Transmission by Joy Division ... I remember those bootlegs being celebrated and loved by everybody. Why not now? They've always played covers in their sets, sometimes 2-3 a night just like now. Also Gossamer is now down to only 16mins, and is sounding a lot better these days. The thing that drew me to the Pumpkins was the fact they weren't like any other band, and at the moment they are doing that again. Also Im judging the reactions of the recent shows from all the negative reviews written by Pitchfork critics (who have always hated SP) or disgruntle fans. Unless we are at the show, we can't judge the band motives right now and thats how I feel. Unless Im there, in the moment, seeing the rest of the show ... I can't make an honest judgement on what is going on at the concerts. As for the other band members, that thought did cross my mind but reading the recent blogs by Jeff I can see they are just enjoying creating the new direction of the Pumpkins. The Pumpkins have never sat well with the expectations of their fans or the music community ... yet this always seems to come as a surprise to us all, is it that we just want the Pumpkins to be the band that everybody loves and is middle of the road safe. So we don't have to defend our love for the band, again and again? I know Im sick of that as a SP fan. Everytime I say I like the Pumpkins, Im ready for an argument ... and most times thats what happens. But yeah, I can see the love of any fan being questioned at the moment ... even though I feel this way today, I honestly don't know how I'll feel tomorrow.
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Post by foxy on Nov 23, 2008 11:08:11 GMT 7
It seems that they are caving out a new audience for themselves (the whole musical tourists thing comes to mind). Just like they did with the MCIS tour where they'd play long songs 45 minute silverfuck for example and then close with 1979. During the 94 tours the banter to the crowd was very aggressive, people wanted to hear disarm or I am one... What did they do? They came up with completely different ways to play them... probably out of spite.
That being said, why name this your 20th anniversary tour if you weren't going to celebrate a few more of the tracks from your 20 years?
It seems to me they are looking for an audience that will embrace all their stuff, not just the hits... Problem is that it seems they are getting a little too out there for some people and may end up with only a niche audience...
As for the amex card holder priority ticket caper, that would primarily be down to the venue/ticketmaster...
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 23, 2008 16:12:17 GMT 7
This is the third time i've sat down to write something, each time I feel as if there isn't much point to adding what I think, but I'm doing it anyway in the hope that it may offer something else.
Having read the posts for this thread I have to say that I am really dissapointed, it seems that there is nowhere left to go to get any critical engagement with the pumpkins anymore.
After all is said and done, I think this will all make alot more sense in a few years to those of you who are unable to grasp what is happening .
Now, if you want to talk about whiny bitches whose shit you have had to ignore or put up with over the years, I'd take a long look at yourselves. You are the 'entitled' fans that I tried to discuss in that article for If All Goes Wrong of which I don't feel I successfully elucidated the problematic relationship which emerged between the fan base and the band with the proliferation of the internet, which I hope to cover in the next week or so.
Anyhow, as has been pointed out, if you look back at MCIS era tours and their setlists, or Adore, Machina, you'll find that the songs played during these tours rarely played alot from the back catalogue, when I listen to those shows now I am in awe of how they pulled it off when comparing it to the reaction today. The spectrum of songs being played on this tour does represent the pumpkin oeuvre, what is it about the phrase "Anniversary Tour" that isn't covered in these shows. It is a tour that celebrates where the band has been and where they are, when I look at the setlists I believe they have done just that.
Secondly, as Billy has stated time and time again, he is playing the songs that represent the band, the drive, will or spirit of the band at this point in time. They are not a dead entity, to play the "20th Anniversay" shows in any other way than how they are doing it would not represent the band. They have always played long covers, they have always played the new album and they have always been antagonistic to the facets of their audience who think they have a role in the band itself.
Listening to the shows on live music archive (having not heard any of the soundboards that are available as I can't afford them at this point in time) I have been in awe of how well they've been playing, the shows sound amazing.
I've been thinking alot about Foxy's comment about how he feels the band want to move in the 99 floors direction rather than As Rome Burns, and I understand where you're coming from Foxy; although I consider the direction and tone of these shows as being in the same realm as that of the MCIS recording period, including all of TAFH. Listening to all of those records yesterday reminded me of what this band is about, they are all things: brilliant, crazy, silly, sentimental, artistic, cheesy, angry etc etc -- the whole spectrum of our lives.
When looking at the latest setlists and listening to them, I am extremely grateful that I get to be here for them.
I'm not confused by the sentiment of those of you are unsure about the current incarnation of the band and its direction, it seems very pedestrian and I expected that from you. What I don't understand is how after all of this time, you are still unable to see the band in the bigger picture. If you are to take the time to look at other major artists from Bob Dylan to The Cure, to Nick Cave, David Bowie etc whose lives as artists have been spent evolving both musically and aesthetically over their respective periods you would see the same arguments circulating over and over in respect to lineups, artistic intention, fan response, critical response etc etc etc. These artists have always had to deal with these things, but time has proven that they are dismissed, you won't hear reviewers complaining about the lineup of the Cure, or Nick Cave not playing anything from the Birthday Party or David Bowie's slumps etc etc. However, there was a time where all of these things were the only focus point for the media and fans.
If this is the case, then why is it that pumpkin fans still act like this. Comments like, "They should do the setlist like 'insert stupid comment'" are exactly that, stupid. If the Pumpkins were to remove set the control and play three other songs I think the criticisms would still remain. It's not the covers that are the problem, this wouldn't stop the bitching.
When I hear Billy talking to the audience in these youtube clips I see a man confused with his audience in the same way that Dylan was, I remember reading an interview where Dylan said "That can't be my audience, they just can't be." Dylan couldn't understand how people could listen to his music, pour over his lyrics and then go to Woodstock. In the same way that Billy can't understand how after 20 years with everything they have said and done people can't understand that they are not a band to hold your lighter in the air and get teary, they are there because they have a vision which they are trying to manifest and there is a vocal part of the fanbase who cannot accept that they do not own the band.
Oh, and what the fuck is with the comment about TFE? The whole album utlises the guitar, and from where I'm standing I thought it was an extremely innovative and exciting use of it.
Do you remember the TFE tour when Billy took the stage to tell us a secret? And how the moronic audience started shouting and demanding things of him? That's an audience and fanbase I don't want to be a part of. I'm tired of defending the pumpkins to people who only know fragmented reports about the band. And I'm tired of defending the band to those who should know better already.
As for the comments about the band not being "Alternative" because of blah blah blah, take a look at your expectations of the band, and your understanding of what Alternative music is all about. Take a look at the open taping policy, Billy's interaction with fans after the show, radio interviews etc etc. How do you think all of the demos we have heard get out to us?
This band has been nothing but gratious to us, and still you act like the owe you more.
I don't give a fuck about your expectations of the band, and how they've dissapointed you in some way, because that is not what they are here to do, they have not and will not, ever, cater to your oppresive expectations.
If you want to pull the strings, find a puppet, because the pumpkins won't be your fucking mute toy.
Edit: Oh, also, I'd like to make it clear that I'm not referring to everyone on this board, or their posts, I'm referring to those who get offended, if you do, I mean you.
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Post by blue_june_destroyer on Nov 23, 2008 22:09:20 GMT 7
I cannot believe what some of you are posting! Where the fuck have you been living whilst all of this has been going on?! This is not an unprovoked 'Corgan Rant' and has not totally come out of left-field. This is what has been happening since the band started making music again in 2007 and even in a previous incarnation for example with the release of 'Adore' and to a lesser extent 'Machina'. People are whiny bitches and feel entitled to hearing their favourite songs live and they get pissy and complain about how the band have done them wrong and how Billy doesn't want to play for them.
Heath, for starters TheFutureEmbrace is not a Smashing Pumpkins release, it is a Billy Corgan solo effort and not part of 'Smashing Pumpkins' career history. Secondly, there has always been tension. Speaking as one of those who were there from the early online days, there were always those fans who would see a show and complain that 'Oh Billy looked like he was tired of playing 'Disarm'' and 'Billy didn't shake my hand and want to be my best fucking friend for life when I followed him to his tour bus'. Now in this instant information age we live in, BC can't eat breakfast without a handful of trouble-making douchebags attacking, critiquing and generally making disparaging comments about him and his activities. The moron quotient is growing and the internet has given them more of a soapbox for causing general discomfort in the community than ever before.
To me, if you whine that a show was too short, the band didn't play the hits, Billy didn't seem happy, the band left and didn't meet fans, Billy was cold to the people who asked him stupid questions --- you are the ingrates. You are the people that make the rest of us sick. You are the people who want EVERYTHING but NOTHING is ever good enough because you will always find cause for complaint. You're never happy. You're never glad for what you have. You're the people who get something for nothing like 5mins of the bands time outside of a venue for absolutely no cost at all but out of the kindness of the band's collective hearts and you'll be the dickhead that jumps on a forum the next day or that night to tell everyone how rude BC was and how he went on some unpredictable rant and how dare he do that because we paid for our pound of flesh.
This tour, as far as my understanding has been from day one, is for fans and the band to CELEBRATE the fact that such an awesome collective known as Smashing Pumpkins started making music 20 years ago and are still making some damned fucking fantastic sounds today. It's like celebrating your own 20th birthday - you don't act like a 2 year old or 5 year old for the day to remember what it was like and bring out the Lego blocks and racing cars because that's what you used to do a long time ago. Sure, you might tell tales and reminisce about your younger days pausing to recall certain events along the way but it's a celebration of being; You've reached this milestone and it's fucking fantastic to share it with those who love you. Instead this amazing band I hold near and dear to me fronted by one of the most sincere and honest people I've ever met in my life is constantly having their name dragged through the mud so that some shithead sitting behind a computer can feel like they got their moneys worth and could relive some of their favourite songs of the past. It doesn't work like that. It's not fucking realistic to dwell on things like that.
I generally don't weigh into these discussions anymore because it's threads like this that make me sick and ultimately I end up sounding the bad guy when really the reactions are from the people who I'm talking about right now. As o'sullivan put it (not to paraphrase) - this is to everybody and nobody in particular but if you get offended by what I've said, then yes - I mean you. I'm talking about you... I just hope some of you read what I've said and realise how unreasonable and self-righteous you're being in regard to the band and your misguided demands.
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wolfbite
zero
Please don't feed the animals
Posts: 113
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Post by wolfbite on Nov 24, 2008 6:09:18 GMT 7
The guys stood on stage and told the audience that they reminded him of an ex girlfriend that took his money.
I reckon that a lot of the crowd felt the same about him because they are the ones who actually gave him their money expecting to turn up to a 20th aniversary show which should have been a celebration of the last 20 years of the smashing pumpkins. If you don't want to play that music then just do a normal tour or don't call yourself the smashing pumpkins and don't call it a 20th anniversary tour because it sets up false expectations. It is the context of the tour that is the issue, people thought that they would be able to go along and hear the stuff that they didn't hear on the last tour and they are being dissapointed.
The band isn't living up to a lot of the fan base's expectations, would it really kill them to play a couple of extra songs just to keep those fans happy? Billy needs to realise that to disregard what is a large part of his fan base in the way that he is means that he is shiting on people that supported him and continue to support him (they are still buying concert tickets) and it is fucking poor form. They have stuck with the band just as long as any of us, otherwise they wouldn't know what those songs are. I was really annoyed whilst watching Pete Townsend in IAGW when he called some fans 'cunts', I would hope that Billy does not have a similar opinion of any of the fans of the pumpkins, however I am concerned that he may, otherwise I expect that he would have had the line left on the cutting room floor. When you are playing a show for a couple of hours surely you should be able to keep most people happy, maybe if he cut short the 25 minute versions of cover songs by a few minutes and play an extra hit or two then he would keep everyone happy.
For a bloke that complained about his album sales on stage he seems to really want to upset a lot of his fans, I wonder if he remembers that it is those people who actually buy his albums?Unfortunately in this case you can't have it both ways.
I like to look at things from all perspectives and not just follow him along like a lost little puppy dog, not saying that anyone on here does that. Having said all that, I love all the new stuff, GLOW, 99 Floors, As Rome Burns, Superchrist etc etc are all terrific. He is still my favorite artist but I can see how he sabotages himself. He has admitted that he does it, we have all seen the interview broadcasted in the Triple JJJ Secret Gig. It isn't fair for him to blame his fans, they just want to rock out to great Pumpkins tracks.
By the way, am I the only one who wishes that all of the tracks from the rehersal on IAGW where on the American Gothic EP?
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Post by closer on Nov 24, 2008 6:27:00 GMT 7
I think it is easy to blame "society" for the way the pumpkins are being received of late. However,there are plenty of other musicians out there, who pull in bigger crowds than the pumpkins, who are in a position of releasing new original music to a fanbase who appreciates it.
By blaming todays culture, even if it is at fault to a certain extent, I think is really missing the mark.
Billy is a man of many contradictions. I've been watching his career for over 10 years now, and he seems to constantly justify his bad behaviour, however at the same time has little tolerance for bad behaviour in others.
I don't see how any good can come from performing a show and treating your audience like shit, no matter what the reason is.
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Post by Cygnet on Nov 24, 2008 12:26:02 GMT 7
How did this conversation move to what is being played? That's not really the issue, I personally think what theyre playing is an accurate representation of the various facets of their sound, styles over the year, including the bits that are taking the piss. The issue is that for people who are not part of the condescension there has been towards the band over the past year or so in particular, the people that are just there to see the music being played, they are still having to deal with the antagonism that is being shown towards the crowds.
I haven't been at the shows and I've only heard bits and pieces of the audio, so I can't tell if what is actually being said is just tongue-in-cheek ribaldry like in Adelaide or more genuine spite, but ive read comments from people at the shows who were genuinely taken back by his behaviour, people who seem genunine and willing to accept any musical direction the band wants to take, but are deeply offended by his antagonism towards the crowds. Personally I'd rather satisfy the people that are there for the right reasons than admonish those who are there for the wrong reasons, until i've heard the specific recordings and can decifer whether he is just putting on an act I chose to reserve my judgement because theres just no way to know.
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Post by Tragic Ether on Nov 24, 2008 14:44:40 GMT 7
Possible Reasons for Billy's Rants of late:
PMS His cat got run over He got his knickers in a twist Disapproving dad He read some internet forum gripes about his haircut Unhappy with Baz Lurhman's final cut of 'Australia' Not 'getting any' Someone took the jam outta his doughnut The big kids are picking on him Displeased with the re-casting of Rhodey in Iron Man 2 Mid-life crisis Purposely trying to gain 100% public hatred He voted for McCain-Palin
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Post by foxy on Nov 24, 2008 15:33:58 GMT 7
Possible Reasons for Billy's Rants of late: Unhappy with Baz Lurhman's final cut of 'Australia' yep... thats it.
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Post by Anahedonia on Nov 24, 2008 19:41:39 GMT 7
I think this will all make alot more sense in a few years to those of you who are unable to grasp what is happening . I'm not confused by the sentiment of those of you are unsure about the current incarnation of the band and its direction, it seems very pedestrian and I expected that from you. wow
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 24, 2008 20:21:29 GMT 7
not cool?
I still stand by that, indebted to billy for that one, re: his comments about the band being misunderstood, the kind of band whose work will make sense down the line.
I figure that those two quoted declarative statements get the 'wow' response because of the 'you', but what's the point in writing a comment if you don't address someone directly, thus the use of the second-person singular personal pronoun 'you'.
Do you disagree with what i've said?
If you do, let's get some discussion going! Quoting me and typing three letters only allows me to ask you what you mean...
Edit: Haha, after editing this edit three times I'm settling on this:
Ok, so out of all that I've said in my previous post, you've chosen to highlight those two particular sections....come on now!
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Post by Anahedonia on Nov 24, 2008 21:04:47 GMT 7
i'm not usually one to go on making long posts and i couldn't be bothered getting involved in this discussion, but those two quotes, i just had to say something. do you realize what a dick you look like there?
you assume that many of us don't grasp what's going on, but you do.
and the second quote, well maybe i read it wrong, but i can't see how i could have misinterpreted "it seems very pedestrian and I expected that from you" .
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 24, 2008 22:33:12 GMT 7
Ok, I can see how I could be perceived as a 'dick' but honestly, don't you ever feel frustrated with this fan community?
To be clear, I don't assume that I know something YOU don't, I'm on this website to talk about the pumpkins, I try to contribute with posts that lead to discussion. Maybe I try to do this because of the Adore and Machina days when the boards used to be full of interesting posts and discussions concerning lyrics, artwork, composition etc etc. There has always been a vocal facet of the community that has been concerned with the success of the band, whether it be the amount of records sold, whether a concert is 'sold out' or not, critical reactions to albums etc etc etc - but most importantly it didn't seem like it really mattered because if the fan community was strong then we would always be able to provide the band with a platform to continue writing. There was this sense that the Pumpkins were a secret, that they were special, and that special band spawned a special community which was somehow importantly linked to the band. That sense is lost these days, and I'm trying to work out why.
I've found that across the boards these days, the main pumpkins message boards, that people are often making invalid arguments about the band and they often seem extremely ungrateful and shortsighted. Either that or anyone who tries to start discussion is torn down, or people just reply with absurd shit for the sake of it, because it's kind of funny, yeah?
There seems to be no thought out, critical responses to the bands work anymore. Personally, I don't think there is ever a point to comparing one album to another, such as that of comparing Zeitgeist to the previous Pumpkins albums, we should take it for what it is, what it has attempted to do, what measure of achievement it reached and whether it is of any high seriousness. Furthermore, how are we to discuss the band if we aren't to look at our expectations of artists, the role music plays in art, the current music industry, the current manner in which we consume music, it's distribution etc etc? - if we don't address these things then there isn't much to offer in a discussion forum other than poorly thought out responses often in the form of "This is my OPINION" which ultimately is a disclaimer that says "You can say what you want, but I feel this way and that's that." Which is fucking retarded.
When I typed the original post I had the entire community in mind, not just that of Ozphoria. When I head over to Netphoria I see the same thing, there's this general consensus that to provide a well rounded view of the pumpkins we have to look at positive and negative reviews and then discuss them, but in the end the reviews disappear and what is left is the fans and the strength of that community relies on the strength of our discussions and love of the band.
The desire you had to say 'something' is fair enough, but if 'wow' and that I seem like a 'dick' are your focus then I'd reconsider that desire to contribute. Looking back over my post I feel as if it's unfortunate that I called people out for not 'understanding' the band etc; it didn't help my cause. I wanted to express my dissatisfaction with vocal element of the fanbase who deride the band for everything they do but are never able to validate their arguments when it comes to the time to do so.
It's not that I assume that anyone doesn't 'grasp' what is 'going on', it's that I feel that as a whole the pumpkins community is very insular and the motivation behind my post was to point out that all of this concern with the recent tours, billy's supposed rants, and the future for the pumpkins is not really an issue given the kind of band the pumpkins are. From the beginning Billy has seen making music as a life long pursuit, I think that time is on their side if they continue to try and make music they are proud of, worries like these will dissipate and prove to be worthless.
Many great artists and bands have lost the fans that brought them to mainstream attention and then found themselves new audiences who are into what they are creating.
Did you misread the second quote? I'm not sure either, did you feel you were being addressed? If so, it doesn't take very long to type something out.
What I've always liked about Ozphoria is the fact that people can contribute their thoughts without it turning into an inane back and forth of flaming or what have you. So, please don't misinterpret this post, I'm not having a go at you, I'm trying to define what I'm thinking.
After all, a message board like this is a website which is dedicated to a body of work which we all have differing positions on, and in the period between albums all we have to focus on is the tours and the media that surrounds them.
Has Billy turned his back on those who brought him to this point?
Could Billy avoid this criticism surrounding the current tours?
The answer is uncertain.
I give the man a bit of credit, from the interviews I've read over the years he seems dedicated to his craft and comes across as a disciplined and intelligent man. He is well aware of what is going on and I can't imagine him being so naive as to not understanding the gripes and dissatisfaction emerging from the shows and the Zeitgeist album/reunion. But why is he acting the way he is? I can't imagine it not coming from a place where the music and his vision play the most important role in his decision making process and if it were any other way then it wouldn't be the motherfucking smashing pumpkins.
michael.
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Post by Anahedonia on Nov 24, 2008 23:10:11 GMT 7
The desire you had to say 'something' is fair enough, but if 'wow' and that I seem like a 'dick' are your focus then I'd reconsider that desire to contribute. go fuck yourself!
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Post by Anahedonia on Nov 24, 2008 23:21:38 GMT 7
how do you expect me respond to something like that?
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 24, 2008 23:26:57 GMT 7
Honestly, after two long posts where I've tried to clearly explain myself, I didn't think your response would be like that. I expected you to take some of my points ABOUT THE BAND and discuss them not turn this into some abusive thing. When I said that you should reconsider that desire to contribute I was implying that you should take the time to contribute some worthwhile point not just a go fuck yourself or you're a dick.
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Post by Anahedonia on Nov 24, 2008 23:38:04 GMT 7
why not delete some more posts of yours so that mine don't make any sense while you're at it?
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Post by sunkissed on Nov 24, 2008 23:39:51 GMT 7
My god, quit it already. I deleted my post because I didn't see the sense in responding to you that way, at the time you hadn't posted so I thought I could get it in before it was seen by anyone, which is fully within the scope of my rights anyhow..
If it matters, the post which I deleted followed anahedonia's "Go Fuck yourself" and was something like "Come on man, don't be like that."
Edit: and anyhow, your posts makes sense either way.
I don't want to be involved in this exchange any further. I've said what I've needed to say, if there are points brought up about the band then i'll respond, as for this dialectic between us...I'm no longer interested. Stay cool.
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kimbui1
zero
Dissillusion
Posts: 191
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Post by kimbui1 on Nov 25, 2008 2:16:06 GMT 7
I just hate going to a gig where the artist on stage puts the crowd down. It really sours what could have been a perfect night for a fan. I think that's why I feel a bit cold on the show in Brisbane earlier this year compared to the V Festival Gold Coast gig.
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